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PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#11

Home away from home

Is the AC relay TRIGGERED by the 6v battery or the 12v motorcycle battery??? It should be triggered by the 6v CAR battery. NOT the 12v motysickle battery.

What kind of 12v alternator is used to charge the 12v battery????

Mite need a larger 12v bike battery suitable for electric start bikes which most modern bikes are, even small bikes.

Note that motysickle batteries are notoriuosly short life. Usualy 2 to 3 years. Altho i have seen a few exceptions in 6v's.

So your problem as described is most likely due to battery age and/or alternator output problems.

Most modern 12v cycle batteries and alternators (usualy very small) are good enuf to keep all of the lites and ignition running on bikes at idle speed, unless of course the battery or alternator is going bad.

Posted on: 2012/5/9 17:20

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PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#12

Home away from home

Check the AC relay (regardles if triggered by 12v or 6v) to determine how much amps is required to keep it energized.

Edit. Also, u never indicated what kind of a relay it is. I would use a starter relay and not a fog hat nor headlite nor horn relay nor anyother kind of relay

Posted on: 2012/5/9 17:27

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Jim McDermaid

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#13

Home away from home

I suppose original A/C parts are unobtainium?

My system has a Sanden compressor with a custom bracket mounted to the engine by way of head bolts and other mounting points. No irreversible modifications to the car.

The problems are as follows;

There is a switch under the dash that engages the 12 volt battery; otherwise it tries to run on the alternator only. I plan to replace the dash switch and 12 volt relay with a 6 volt relay that will connect the 12 volt battery when ever the ignition switch is on. The little alternator drains the battery if left connected.

The belt warp for the alternator is a passing touch and I believe it slips part of the time when it is under load.

The compressor has two "VEE's" in the pulley so it may be possible to move the alternator forward about ? of an inch and run it from the compressor although things are tight and the transmission cooler is right in this area.

We talked about using a DC to DC converter to jack the 6 volts up to 12 for the A/C but I'm guessing the A/C pulls about 15 Amps which would be doubled to a 30 Amps plus drain on the 6 volt system, so I'm keeping the alternator for now.

I don't know what refrigerant is actually in the system. I don't know an easy way to tell, the expansion valve doesn't appear to be marked. The fittings are R-12 and I believe it was installed in the late 1990's.

Jim

Posted on: 2012/5/14 18:33

PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#14

Home away from home

Quote:
"I plan to replace the dash switch and 12 volt relay with a 6 volt relay that will connect the 12 volt battery when ever the ignition switch is on."

That should solve most of the trouble.

R12 was rather quickly phased out in the 92-94 time frame. So not likely it has R12 if system installed late 90's as u indicate.

Does the system have a SITE GLASS on it???

Freeze12 is available to J.Q. Public and is a replacement for R12. However, contrary to the so-called "professionals" of AC the R134A, R12 and Freeze12 can be mixed. NOT prefered but can be done with good results and longterm service.

Either way, if u have a set of AC guages then it mite be possible to determine if R134 or R12 by taking pressure readings. I don't think Freeze12 (brand name) came out until about 2001 or 2002. Do a google to reseach it.

OR, hopefully someone else in this forum has a better way to determine the Refrigerant that is already in it. I'd sure like to know an easier way.

Posted on: 2012/5/14 19:30

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BigKev

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#15

Webmaster

Sounds like the is an issue with how the 12v alternator is wired up. It should have a "energize" wire that should be switched. Sounds like it is always hot, and that is why it is draining the battery over time.

The 12v alternator bat lead should wired to the 12 battery. Then from the 12v battery there should be a larger fused feed for the A/C system that goes to the switched side of the relay, and on to the A/C setup.

There should also be another smaller fused feed that feed the under dash switch, and then to the trigger terminal on the relay and also the ground terminal of the trigger should be grounded.

Now that covers the basic A/C setup. No you just need another smaller 6v relay that you can use to trigger the energize wire on the alternator, so it can charge the 12 battery regardless is the A/C is active or not.

For that you would take the hot side of the under dash A/C switch and connect to the switched side of the 6v relay, then the other side of switch to the energize wire on the alternator. Then connect the trigger side of that relay to the switched on side of the Ignition switch, and of course connect the trigger ground.

So when the ignition is turned on it activate the 6v relay (6v switching) and supply 12v to the energize circuit on the alternator. That 12v feed is so minimal that the won't hurt 6v relay.

So to recap... the alternator will charge the 12 battery only when the ignition is on. The A/C system uses has its own relay that is for turn that system on or off, and has no bearing on the charging circuit itself. This should keep the battery charged when the car is running (as it does in any normal car). When the ignition is off, it will kill the energize to the Alternator preventing the alternator regulator circuit from draining the battery.

Posted on: 2012/5/14 21:57

-BigKev

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PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#16

Home away from home

Maybe i missed something along the way, i don't know. But what kind of alternator is it???? Is it a Delco?? A Nipendenso, Ford, Kubota or what??? That mite make some difference in the wireing.

Posted on: 2012/5/14 22:29

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HH56

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#17

Forum Ambassador

Quote:

BigKev wrote:
Sounds like the is an issue with how the 12v alternator is wired up. It should have a "energize" wire that should be switched. Sounds like it is always hot, and that is why it is draining the battery over time.

The 12v alternator bat lead should wired to the 12 battery. Then from the 12v battery there should be a larger fused feed for the A/C system that goes to the switched side of the relay, and on to the A/C setup.

There should also be another smaller fused feed that feed the under dash switch, and then to the trigger terminal on the relay and also the ground terminal of the trigger should be grounded.

Now that covers the basic A/C setup. No you just need another smaller 6v relay that you can use to trigger the energize wire on the alternator, so it can charge the 12 battery regardless is the A/C is active or not.

For that you would take the hot side of the under dash A/C switch and connect to the switched side of the 6v relay, then the other side of switch to the energize wire on the alternator. Then connect the trigger side of that relay to the switched on side of the Ignition switch, and of course connect the trigger ground.

So when the ignition is turned on it activate the 6v relay (6v switching) and supply 12v to the energize circuit on the alternator. That 12v feed is so minimal that the won't hurt 6v relay.

So to recap... the alternator will charge the 12 battery only when the ignition is on. The A/C system uses has its own relay that is for turn that system on or off, and has no bearing on the charging circuit itself. This should keep the battery charged when the car is running (as it does in any normal car). When the ignition is off, it will kill the energize to the Alternator preventing the alternator regulator circuit from draining the battery.

I think I missed something too. Not quite following the suggestion. The under dash toggle switch is to be eliminated so I think you are saying two Bosch type 6v N.O. relays (or a 6v double pole if available) operated by the ignition switch & both connected to 12v battery post -- one would connect the AC to battery when ign on and the other to connect the alternator exciter and then ensure disconnect when ign off -- or is there something else.

Posted on: 2012/5/14 23:19

Howard

PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#18

Home away from home

One bit of info we are missing is what kind of alternator is used. Are we to assume it has a built in regulator??? Maybe it doesn't.

**** In any case the alternator OUTput should charge the 12v battery back thru the 12v OUTPUT post of the 6v activated relay. ******* Alt should not charge directly to the 12v battery post.

There should be one, exactly one and only one wire coming off of the 12v battery + post. It should connect to the INput side of the 6v activated relay. There should be no splices nor anyother form connections between 6v activated relay and + post of 12v battery.

i.e. the 12 v OUTput post of the relay becomes the sole 12v power source as if it were the + post a battrery and that is all. So the alt will also charge back thru the OUTput post of the relay.

For all intents and purposes the OUTput post of the relay is exactly and only an extension of the + post of the 12v battery. Which means that the 12 battery + POST has exactly one and only one connection made to it and that is INput side of the relay.

The 6v relay is activated by the 6v ignition switch.

Look at it this way:

The relay acts like one of those 'green knob' battery disconnects for the 12v battery. The only difference is that instaed of phsically by hand turning a green knob one simply turns an ignition sw. to make make or break the connection of the 12v battery post.

Now, EVERYTHING 12v must treat the OUTput side of the realy as if it were the POST of the battery and that the post of the battery is non accessible otherwise.

Posted on: 2012/5/15 7:36

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PackardV8

Re: Add-On-Air Conditioning, 54 Cavalier.

#19

Home away from home

Hmmmm. Something just occured to me:
How expensive or difficult is it to obtain a SIX volt common ordinary Ford any other brand of starter relay these days????

I don't know. Havn't had to buy in one over 10 or 12 years.

Posted on: 2012/5/15 10:30

VAPOR LOCK demystified: See paragraph SEVEN of PMCC documentaion as listed in post #11 of the following thread:f
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