Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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My Series 23 Packard used to occasionally stall, sometimes while on the freeway. I found the heat shield over the fuel pump was missing and put one on the car. That helped cure the low speed stalling. The high speed stalling seems like vapor lock. I installed an electric fuel pump in parallel with the mechanical pump and a switch to turn it on from the seat. That cures the high speed stalling and also helps on cold starts.
Posted on: 2018/10/4 22:58
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Fred Puhn
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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If it stalls on turns the float level is either very high or very low.
I am learning that with ethanol I have better results by lowering the stock float level a bit. My 56 has just changed from ridiculously difficult hot starts to instantaneous hot starts by that simple expedient
Posted on: 2018/10/5 18:58
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Not too shy to talk
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Heat shield: I found it in the trunk with some other parts. I'd been planning on painting it and getting it bolted on. I'll make that a priority.
Float level: I wanted some confirmation from "Packard People" before attempting it, so that's good information. I'd seen it mentioned on other sites but with newer carbs. I'm always a little leery of opening up a carburetor as I've had some bad experiences in the past. Hopefully this will be so simple that even I can't screw it up ![]()
Posted on: 2018/10/5 21:00
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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Recently my 2262 began to run really bad . . . I mean really bad. No power, stumbling, and sustained multi-cylinder misfire. Just as I got back to the garage I was able to determine that if I was really aggressive with the throttle the engine ran a bit better. When the symptoms first began the outside air temperature was something above 105F, with a coolant temperature of 180+F. The fuel was at least 4 months old, and based on when I re-filled the gas was likely 'winter blend'. Once the engine had completely cooled the next restart was without fault, and the engine ran without evidence of the previous symptoms.
I know the trouble-shooting list for rough running covers just about everything, so I started by making an assumption that the fuel supply was compromised . . . you've got to start somewhere. I started-off by installing a fuel pressure gauge that I could read 'on the fly'. It's a 2 5/8 inch, AutoMeter, 0-15 psi electric gauge (no fuel lines inside the car) with a 270 degree sweep. Even on the fly I can read the fuel pressure within ? psi without much of a problem. The car is also equipped with a Carter electric fuel pump used to prime the system after a few weeks rest. It's not needed if I use the car daily or every other day. My experience with other carbureted engines in Arizona is that the float bowl, and I suspect the jet passages, will evaporate quite quickly. Now here comes the good part. I left the pressure gauge installed while going through the other items on the long trouble shooting list. I have observed twice now the fuel pressure is 3 - 3.5 psi while the car warms-up, and maintains that pressure while I drive at low speed to the first street intersection where I make a right angle right hand turn. After making the turn I'm climbing a slight grade and accelerating to 40 mph (but not fast enough to suffer a case of whip-lash). Twice the fuel pressure has dropped to zero during the acceleration. Once the pressure tried to recover on its own and rose to about 1 psi only to drop back to zero. Turning on the electric pump restored the fuel pressure. In one case the pressure was lost as soon as the E-pump was turned off. The other case the fuel pressure was OK after I turned off the E-pump. The E-pump is normally on for about 15 seconds. In general, once the mechanical pump begins working again it will be OK for the rest of the trip. Previously this car would routinely need the E-pump every time I first started to drive the car at speed. Recently I changed the mechanical fuel pump to a rebuilt unit from Max. That cured a lot of the fuel delivery problems I was having, however none of my previous experience was with the fuel pressure instrumented, so my diagnoses was based more on symptoms than hard data. Use of the E-pump always seems to cure the problem of stumbling and stalling. So I think I've caught the car misbehaving at 100+F with a ? tank of old fuel, and 65F with a full tank that would be a blend of old and 'new' fuel. The previous experience with the 'other' fuel pump coupled with the current experience suggest that just after a 'cold' start there will be normal operation with the engine at idle (car not moving), and engine at low power (car moving at < 25 mph), but once a hard turn is made and the car is accelerating to approximately 40 mph there is a complete loss of fuel pressure. I'm at a loss, but some of Shore72's experience could be a loss of fuel pressure. I'm thinking the quality of the modern fuel, specifically the Reid Vapor Pressure, is becoming quite marginal, but other than an E-pump at the tank I don't know what to do to make things better. The service letters issued when the cars were new suggest this fuel delivery situation may be inherent to the type design. By the way, when the car was really running bad the E-pump didn't seem to help, so I'm not sure if I'm on the right track to solve my rough running issue. dp
Posted on: 2018/10/17 19:34
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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Every time I see these kinds of postings for postwar Packards I always think the same thing. Sometimes I even post the biggest cure I ever knew from back in the 1970s. But no one has ever commented that it helped. Anyway, I'll do it again.
Check the flex coupling in the fuel line where it leads to or from the fuel pump. What do you check for? Fine hairline cracks. You often have to remove the flex coupling and look at it very up close in good light. If you bend it and hairline cracks show up ... THAT is the problem. Used to see this all, all, all the time on postwar Packards-especially V-8s. It is not a visually obvious problem unless you do very close inspection. And it often does not make itself known with a leak. But it is the cause of many problems like this. The mechanic at Frost & French Packard dealership in Los Angeles decades ago told me people would bring cars in after buying a new fuel pump and would swear they sold them a bad pump... but the real problem the whole time was never the pump or the carb. It was the flex coupling in the fuel line. These couplings often look perfectly fine, but under pressure all kinds of things happen: they leak, they suck air, deform, etc. etc. It's a cheap fix, but almost no one ever tries it until they've already spent a pantload of money and wasted a lot of time. Anyway... for what it's worth...
Posted on: 2018/10/17 20:28
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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Good input!
I believe I changed the hose when I changed the pump, but I can't find an entry in the book I keep reminding me on what I've worked on, or changed. So since I can't tell I'll install a new line and report back. Due to other commitments it may take me the better part of a month to update the topic thread. Considering I had the same loss of fuel pressure symptom at the same street intersection on two different days with a 40 F difference in outside air temperature, and a 30 F difference in coolant temperature that does suggest that I'm not dealing with a phase change problem. The E-pump was installed with a few neoprene lines, so I'll change out those also . . . . They might be quite old (I did not get the maintenance records when I bought the car). To turn this into a proper science experiment I'll change one line at a time. To counter the Frost & French experience I do pressurize the hose to 3+ psi every time I prime the carburetor with the E-pump. There has never been the slightest hint of an overboard fuel leak. I guess the hose could be collapsing to an area that is quite restrictive and the E-pump pushes it back to an acceptable area. Why the damn thing only misbehaves early in a drive and more times than not on a turn may have to remain a mystery. Thanks again for the input. The hose is at the top of the list of things to do. dp
Posted on: 2018/10/17 22:57
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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Leeedy's suggestion is an excellent one as the stock pump sucks (literally) and could close down the inside of a bad hose while the electric pump pushes so could open it enough to get pressure.
As for running bad fuel, I totally seized the engine of my 1952 Henney-Packard by running old fuel. By the following Saturday it would not crank which turned out to be major build-up on the valves that were so stuck that one even bent when trying to remove it.
Posted on: 2018/10/28 15:19
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Forum Ambassador
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Wow, just how old was that fuel? And what type of fuel?
Posted on: 2018/10/28 15:39
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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Home away from home
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I have no idea but the car was supposedly in the body shop owned by a Packard Club member and he seemed in no rush for me to pick it up but, when I finally called, he said he had thought I had picked it up years ago! Apparently it had been stolen but I finally located it and brought it back home but by then it had deteriorated after years of sitting out in a field so the petrol was by then many years old. This incident mentioned above was several years after it was recovered so it was very old indeed. Good enough for it to run but it had no power to move the 6,200lb coach.
Posted on: 2018/10/28 16:20
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