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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#11
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1941Packard
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Quote:

Packard Don wrote:
If you’re not using the overdrive, nothing will happen but why do that? Unless you’re rewiring, maybe just leaving them alone is better


The wiring is beyond gone in this car and I'm not sure I want to pony up the thousands it will cost to put everything back to stock 6 volts etc.. Just planning to restomod this thing so it's driveable.

Posted on: 2023/11/27 11:17
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#12
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1941Packard
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Quote:

Ross wrote:
If you leave them disconnected for now the transmission will act as a normal three speed and the overdrive will not operate. You will need to move that one lever on the passenger side forward to prevent the trans from freewheeling. Once upon a time there was a knob under the dash for doing that but who knows if that is still there.


Looking at all the mung I can see why you say they put lipstick on a pig.

Later on when other issues are under control you'll want the overdrive to work as it makes the car freeway capable.


Actually, I do still have the knob for overdrive just dangling under the dash. Yea, I would love to take the body off the frame and properly clean/paint everything and repair some rust holes.

Does anyone know where to drain/fill the transmission? I assume I should do that at a minimum before trying to drive it.

Posted on: 2023/11/27 11:19
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#13
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Ozstatman
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Quote:
1941Packard wrote:.....Does anyone know where to drain/fill the transmission? I assume........

Fill plug is on passenger side of the trans. Has a raised SQUARE head. Drain plug is underneath the trans with a similar raised square head.

Posted on: 2023/11/27 15:49
Mal
/o[]o\
====

Bowral, Southern Highlands of NSW, Australia
"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche.

1938 Eight Touring Sedan - SOLD

1941 One-Twenty Club Coupe - SOLD

1948 Super Eight Limo, chassis RHD - SOLD

1950 Eight Touring Sedan - SOLD

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Any questions - PM or email me at ozstatman@gmail.com
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#14
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su8overdrive
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First order of business: Clean the undercarriage so you can see what you're doing. Computer not required.

Posted on: 2023/11/27 19:06
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#15
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1941Packard
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Because I am missing wiring and the relay, etc for the overdrive unit - I'm guessing I can just wire the overdrive solenoid to a toggle switch. Would just have to remember to disengage it when my speed drops. Or, even better, run it to a GPS speed activate/deactivate switch.


It looks like there is a fill and drain plug for both the transmission and overdrive unit.

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jpg  IMG_7258.jpg (239.03 KB)
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Posted on: 2023/11/27 22:58
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#16
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HH56
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Here is an easier to follow diagram for the overdrive. 41 uses the R9 version which is a bit more complex electrically than the later R11 overdrive. The R11 solenoid can and has been energized manually with a switch because its coils are wired differently but don't know if anyone has tried it with the R9.

In order to bring the R9 solenoid in without the relay box, both terminal 3 and 4 must be jumped together and powered at the same time. 3 is the hold coil but that coil is not strong enough to move the plunger against the spring by itself. 4 is the pull in coil and it does the work of moving the plunger but is a coil that pulls a lot of current and gets hot so gets disconnected when the plunger is fully extended. Without the hold coil also energized at the same time as the pull in coil the plunger will just repeatedly pull in and almost instantly drop out so in effect the solenoid "machine guns".

The power to terminal 3 goes thru a relay coil which increases resistance in the circuit and puts the hold coil the solenoid in a series arrangement. Whether the hold coil is able to be powered constantly at 6v without overheating because the second relay coil is not in the circuit is unknown.

There are some other functions such as the ign cutout and the kickdown that may not be able to be duplicated well without the relay. Until someone tries, no idea now much an issue not having those functions will be.

Attach file:



jpg  R9 Schematic.jpg (148.04 KB)
209_6565713e4cb74.jpg 1197X673 px

Posted on: 2023/11/27 23:27
Howard
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#17
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1941Packard
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Quote:

HH56 wrote:
Here is an easier to follow diagram for the overdrive. 41 uses the R9 version which is a bit more complex electrically than the later R11 overdrive. The R11 solenoid can and has been energized manually with a switch because its coils are wired differently but don't know if anyone has tried it with the R9.

In order to bring the R9 solenoid in without the relay box, both terminal 3 and 4 must be jumped together and powered at the same time. 3 is the hold coil but that coil is not strong enough to move the plunger against the spring by itself. 4 is the pull in coil and it does the work of moving the plunger but is a coil that pulls a lot of current and gets hot so gets disconnected when the plunger is fully extended. Without the hold coil also energized at the same time as the pull in coil the plunger will just repeatedly pull in and almost instantly drop out so in effect the solenoid "machine guns".

The power to terminal 3 goes thru a relay coil which increases resistance in the circuit and puts the hold coil the solenoid in a series arrangement. Whether the hold coil is able to be powered constantly at 6v without overheating because the second relay coil is not in the circuit is unknown.

There are some other functions such as the ign cutout and the kickdown that may not be able to be duplicated well without the relay. Until someone tries, no idea now much an issue not having those functions will be.


Hmmm... That sounds a bit more complicated than I hoped for. Would I be able to install an R11 solenoid to this transmission? Looks like they make those new.

I would be more than happy to just run a switch to the dash for the function of overdrive. I assume I'd need a resistor to bring the voltage down to 6 volts, if I'm running a 12V battery.

Posted on: 2023/11/27 23:43
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#18
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HH56
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No. The R11 plunger length that extends into the overdrive mechanism and locks into the pawl is a different length. R9 extended is about 2 1/4" and R11 extended may be about 1 1/2" "1". R9 solenoids and relay boxes are unique to that unit. R9 relays are still out there but are getting expensive. .

Resistors do not work well with solenoids and overdrives in general. Trying to run a 6v overdrive at 12v using a dropping resistor is almost a guaranteed way to burn something out. The solenoid pulls a heavy current when moving but considerably less when just holding in an extended position. The value and wattage of a resistor would need to be different in each situation to get a proper voltage drop.

EDIT: Updated R11 extended length to 1 1/2"

Posted on: 2023/11/27 23:55
Howard
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#19
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1941Packard
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Quote:

HH56 wrote:
No. The R11 plunger length that extends into the overdrive mechanism and locks into the pawl is a different length. R9 extended is about 2 1/4" and R11 extended is about 1". R9 solenoids and relay boxes are unique to that unit. R9 relays are still out there but are getting expensive. .

Resistors do not work well with solenoids and overdrives in general. Trying to run a 6v overdrive at 12v using a dropping resistor is almost a guaranteed way to burn something out. The solenoid pulls a heavy current when moving but considerably less when just holding in an extended position. The value and wattage of a resistor would need to be different in each situation to get a proper voltage drop.

Gotchya... Sounds like I may have to forgo the overdrive function in my ride...

Posted on: 2023/11/28 0:18
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Re: 1941 120 3 Speed with Overdrive Wiring?
#20
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HH56
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What would be interesting would be if someone with both solenoids at hand could compare R9 and R11 solenoid plungers to see if any parts would interchange. I doubt they would but if that were a possibility it would open up some repair or conversion options. If an R11 repro that comes in 6 and 12v versions could also be compared to see if the r9 plunger could be swapped it would be even better.

Here are differences between solenoid plunger length as well as the bare R9 plunger assy with the ball on the end (ball is almost hidden at the end of plunger in the photo). If the repro solenoid plunger also had a similar travel and a screw on end cap that could remove so the inner shaft with the different lengths could be swapped it would open up lots of possibilities.

Note: I believe BDeB posted the R11 photo some years ago but am not sure if the photo shows the plunger extended or not. If not then it would extend around 1/2 inch to bring the extended measurement to about 1 1/2" so overall length of the R11 extended would be roughly 3/4" shorter than the R9.

Attach file:



jpg  R9 solenoid plunger.jpg (57.29 KB)
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jpg  R9 solenoid plunger length.jpg (128.75 KB)
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jpg  R11 solenoid plunger.jpg (34.27 KB)
209_656579bfb4193.jpg 500X375 px

Posted on: 2023/11/28 0:29
Howard
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