Packard Forum Index » Modification Discussion

This is a posting about how things aren't always as they seem, and how opportunities lie where you would never think of looking for them.

I'm naturally posting it on the two websites where I spend the most time these days: The Packard Forum and the SSR fanatic website. The Packard guys and gals will probably appreciate it because it is so Packard centric. For the SSR Fanatics - it might be a bit of a stretch. It's a technical topic, but those of you on the SSR site might find it offensive because it's not directly SSR-centric. If so, go ahead and evict the posting from the site - I know the literal rules and I won't cry. I just thought some of you might be interested in it, as I know many of you have pretty substantial car collections, you favor hot rods, and you might find the information useful and even inspiring.

Take a look at this photo of my 1952 Packard "daily driver" (yes, I KNOW that's a good laugh):

[IMG]http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh16/JimGnitecki/Packardprofilewithoutrearfactorybum.jpg[/IMG]

Be honest - what would you guess it weighs?

Here are some specs to help you:

Length: 213 inches (17 ? feet)

Width: 78 inches

Height: 62 1/2 inches

Wheelbase: 122 inches

Engine: Cast iron inline 288 cubic inch flathead 8 cylinder (weight with clutch,manual transmission, and overdrive unit is 895 lb)

Comments on build approach: There are 4 very substantial sedan style (full perimeter metal frame) doors with 8 (yes 8) windows, and all the hardware associated with that. The left and right front signal/parking lights weigh in at 4.8 lb. The engine cooling fan is 18 inches in diameter and all metal.

Seating capacity: 6

Truck capacity: 32.5 cubic feet (compare this to any modern car you like - it's HUGE)

Payload (people & cargo) capacity (GVWR minus vehicle weight): In 1952, The Federal Government did not yet require GVWR stickers on every vehicle, but since the car was designed to haul 6 people and their luggage, I think we can assume payload was pretty substantial.

Frame: Heavy duty full perimeter rails PLUS x-frame - makes a modern pickup truck frame look spindly

Sheet metal: I don't know what specific gauge sheet metal was used here. But, the modern practice is to use a lot of 20 or 22 gauge sheet metal. When this Packard was built, the normal practice was more like 16 or 18 gauge. To give you a feel for the difference: 16 gauge is 0.06" thick while 22 gauge is 0.03" thick - half the thickness and half the weight. 16 gauge steel weighs 1.22 pounds per square foot.

True documented story: While Speed Age's road tester was testing the 1952 Packard in 1952, sitting at a traffic light, he was hit by a runaway fuel tanker truck. The car was declared a total loss due to sheet metal damage, BUT (a) the tester was unhurt despite the lack of seat belts or air bags, and despite the car being spun completely around, and (b) the car was DRIVEABLE after the accident despite being "totaled".

This is a BIG car that can be expected to be heavy.

My last long-term daily driver, my 2004 SSR, had the following specs by comparison:

Length: 191 inches (almost 2 feet shorter than the Packard)

Width: 78 ? inches (1/2 inch wider than the Packard)

Height: 64 inches (1 ? inches higher than the Packard

Wheelbase: 116 inches (6 inches shorter than the Packard)

Engine: LS series aluminum V8 (weight with clutch and manual transmission is about 644 pounds, or 251 pounds lighter than on the Packard)

Comment on build approach: Many of the exterior body pieces are plastic and some are retained by Velcro strips. There are only 2 doors, and it's a "hardtop" with NO door metal above the door beltline. The engine cooling fan is plastic.

Seating capacity: 2 (4 less than the Packard - two 18" wide buckets versus two very wide bench seats)

Cargo capacity: 22.5 cubic feet (10 cubic feet less than the Packard)

Payload (people and cargo) capacity (GVWR minus vehicle weight): 1328 lb

The SSR weighs 4639 pounds before fuel.

Here are some other interesting vehicle weights (from Road & Track Magazine):
A Chrysler 300M weighs about 3700 lb.
A BMW M3 Coupe weighs 3650 lb.
A Cadlillac CTS weighs 3980 lb.
A Mustang GT weighs 3615 lb.
A new Challenger weighs 4145 lb.
A Pontiac G8 GT weighs 3910 lb.
A Lexus IS F (the new "performance" Lexus) weighs 3825 lb.
The LIGHTEST of all Mercedes models weighs 3630 lb. with a V6 engine
Even a Honda Accord is 3545 lb.
A Nissan 350Z sports car weighs 3550 lb.
A 2008 Corvette, with its intense and costly focus on weight reduction, weighs 3285 lb.

I weighed my Packard carefully on a set of 4 computer-controlled racing scales. It weighs 3971 pounds with 15 gallons of fuel aboard, and 3879 pounds before fuel.

How can that be?

Well, it IS a pretty simple car. It's large, but it houses a lot of usable "air space". It was the bottom end of a luxury car line, so it lacks most bells and whistles (manual EVERYTHING). It was instead simply built to a very high quality standard versus gadget and option level. For example, after 56 years, all 4 doors still don't sag and still close with a reassuring "thunk".

It gets better.

The weight distribution, left versus right side of the car, is perfect to within 1%. The car IS front-end heavy though due to that heavy engine, and comes in at 56% front / 44% rear. However . . .

I can't help myself here. My mind just naturally wanders to creative places.

Suppose - just supposing now - you replaced the engine, clutch, transmission, and overdrive with a modern GM LS series 6.0 engine plus 700R4 auto OR 6-speed Tremec (your choice- virtually exact same weight), the weight goes to 3632 pounds and the weight distribution becomes 53 front / 47 rear. The power is at LEAST 400 crank hp, and 500 crank hp naturally aspirated is pretty simple, since this car's AMPLE engine compartment (thanks to that huge inline 8 engine) will hold the LS engine, good headers, and a HIGH intake rather easily I think, and LS series performance cams all target 450 to over 500 hp. Yeah, you'd want to change that rear axle to something with posi-traction, but the new axle would likely be same or lighter weight (no kidding - the stock axle on my '55 pickup is same weight as a Ford 9 inch).

Think ultimate sleeper: Big substantial looking early 50s 4-door sedan, but only 3632 pounds and 400 to 500 crank horsepower. Think engine compartment size that makes the compartment in my '55 SLURP pickup project truck look SMALL in comparison, so easy to work in and room for steering and headers, and good cooling air circulation. The frame rail spacing is so wide, I'd be surprised if you need to move the steering at all to get that LS V8 in there. Think about the surprise factor on the street, of a really big 4-door black sedan with a power to weight ratio close to that of a Corvette, and way better than that of a Mustang or new Challenger.

I think this could spell fun.

Heck, I already have a "suitable" (6.0 liter, with Edelbrock Air Gap manifold and TWO 4 barrel carbs) engine and transmission (courtesy of my '55 pickup SLURP project), and I just installed a brand new 3-core radiator in the Packard. I'd need basically boltable custom motor mounts and a driveshaft, to make it driveable . . . .

The gas mileage would probably IMPROVE (ok, I'm rationalizing).

My computer performance modeling software predicts a quarter mile time in the low 12s, and a top speed north of 150, despite the awful aerodynamics, with 1st gear good to 45 mph, 2nd gear good to 85, and under 2000 rpm at 60 mph in overdrive.

How could I do this practically without being "vehicle-less" for weeks? Remember, I bought the Packard to have a daily driver while the '55 pickup project is in progress!

I don't want to instead supercharge that beautifully smooooooth inline flathead 8. It's perfect as is for what it was designed to do. You don't mess with perfection.

The responsible side of me is saying "Why are you even THINKING about something so stupid? This is your replacement daily driver for the daily driver you ALREADY disassembled and made undriveable."

Help me here. The temptation is soooooo strong. The dark side is calling me.

Jim G

Interesting. Just FYI, Packard wt specs were for the 200 3675#; 250 3835#; 300 3880# and 400 4120#. Assume those were empty wt.

What is an SSR ???? Somekind of Super Sonic Right wing airplane or something??? I have no idea.

JimGnitecki,
This is about the most interesting thing I've heard in a long time. When I looked up the weight of my 51 300 I was surprised that it only weighed around 3800 lb. I would have thought it was a lot heavier. My 1976 Lincoln Mark 4 comes in at 6600 lbs with it's 460 ci. engine. One thing that comes to mind that in part explains the reason for the Packard being so lite. The frame under it looks much heavier than it really is. By the general look of it the metal is only half as thick as I've seen on other cars of the 50's It's strong because of the X frame member but not as hefty.


I'm one of those guys that likes everything as stock as it can be but this makes me want to buy a second packard install a modern engine and trans. I never owned a car that even had enough power to get out of it's own way. This would be fun.

SSR is the chevy truck that looks like it is a retro truck but is new. it was a complete waste of time in my opinion and it is ugly. again my opinionpic of ssr

Just for reference, the weights for specific Packard models are listed on the Model Info pages here. Lots of good info squirreled away in there!

Jim, is your '52 not listed in the Owner Registry? I went to look to see what exact model you have so I could bring up the spec sheet on it from the model info pages.

I follow your logic exactly. But why do it the hard way? Why not just buy a 1955 Clipper?

It's substantially the same car you have now but with a V8. If it's not fast enough you could transplant a 374 into it. There are a couple of guys on this forum who could show you how a Packard V8 will kick sand in the face of any stock small block Chev.

A Clipper 4 door with a hopped up 374 and 5 speed transmission. Now that sumbitch would GO. And when you pop the hood there sits a 50 year old Packard engine. The Corvette, Camaro and Mustang drivers you just humiliated would be amazed.

BigKev: You are right - I have never yet "registered" my Packard on the forum. I'll take a look at what is involved and try to do that asap.

I have a 1952 Packard 200 Deluxe, Model 2562, 4-door sedan.

Jim G

Rusty O'Toole: I don't own a Packard V8 engine, but do own a GM LQ9 6.0 liter out of a Cadillac Escalade, that has already been cammed, has MSD electronic ignition fired off the stock reluctor ring, and has had the fuel injection replaced by an Edelbrock performance manifold with dual 4-barrel carbs, all polished for effect.

The Packard V8, despite its non-SAE-compliant "gross" hp rating, would be plenty strong enough, and would certainly be an easier project, since, as you point out, the '55 used the same body (disguised a bit), BUT I don't have one.

You use what you got whenever you can and money is tight . . .

The GM LS series engine is also serviceable anywhere, and very reliable - the LS series V8s are used in all GM V8 vehicles except Cadillac Northstars, including in all the pickup trucks, so the bugs were worked out long ago. And, if the insanity strikes you, Magnacharger makes packaged supercharger kits for them that get them to about 600 crank hp while still being incredibly reliable (and 16 inches of vacuum at idle).

Jim G

I just today received a complete steering wheel from someone, from which I plan to harvest a few parts to replace mine. It's 18 inches in diameter. I weighed it on the postal scale.

It weighs over 8 pounds!

Jim G