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32 packard gears clashing when warm
#1
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tbirdman
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My 32 Packard shifts great when it is cold. When warm it appears that sometimes the clutch is binding and not releasing as even at a stop I can't shift into gear without clashing. It appears something is expanding when warm and binding.

The clutch has been adjust to know avail. And agin when cold it shifts great.

Is there an adjustment that can be made on the clutch? Transmission?

Anything else I should look for?

Posted on: 2014/12/2 0:49
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#2
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Don Shields
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Assuming you're not hearing any abnormal noises that would be indicative of a bearing problem, I'd take a look at the transmission oil level and quality first. If the oil level is OK then it may not be holding its viscosity when warmed up and clashing is the result. If it's been a while since that oil's been changed I'd do that first and see if helps. Just be sure to use the right weight of oil for your transmission.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 1:54
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#3
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Owen_Dyneto
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There were 3 different transmissions used in 1932 and you don't specifiy which one you have which makes it difficult to respond specifically. If you have the brand new for 1932 3-speed synchro and the gear oil is of the correct quantity and viscosity as Don suggests, then possibly the synchros are worn or out of adjustment. The 1st-to-2nd synchro can be adjusted with the transmission in the car by shiming at the rear bearing to obtain a closer engagement; the 2nd-to-3rd synchro is adjustable but may require complete transmission disassembly to adjust but read thru the 1933 Service Letters (below) which discusses the adjustments. The 3-speed synchro transmission was initially provided on the Twin Six and the Light Eight from the beginning of 9th Series production and was phased in over time as production caught up with demand; the other models could have come with either a 4-speed non-synchro (very early cars) or a 4-speed with synchro on the top gears.

Regardless of which transmission, clashing when hot but OK when cold is simply a matter of the gear oil thinning down with heat and being less capable of slowing down the gear spin sufficiently between shifts - that's one of the reasons why Packard recommended a heavier gear oil in the summer, and lighter in the winter, SAE 160 was the summer grade, SAE 90 for winter.

If you have the non-synchro unit, then you've just got to learn to "double-clutch" when shifting gears, a skill that can take a bit of time to acquire.

Of course for any of these transmissions to shift properly the clutch must fully release; pedal free play should be an inch or less and obviously you need to press the pedal fully or nearly to the floor board when shifting.

New repro synchronizers are available for the 32-39 senior 3-speed transmission via Max Merritt should they be required (rarely required), but hold onto your hat when asking for the price.

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Posted on: 2014/12/2 9:23
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#4
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tbirdman
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I have a 4 speed with synchos in the top two geras. Oil has been changed so no I'm running the equivalent of 600W steam oil. No change.

Synchros have been replaced recently. I'm suspecting something else as when I'm at a stop, gears are still spinning. Shifting between 2nd and 3rd is good most of the time when driving down the road. It's when I'm at a stop and trying to shift into anything including 1st and reverse. This only happens once the car warms up. Cold there is not a problem.

I have made the problem a lot less by keeping car in second gear until I'm almost at a stop. Then I shift to neutral and most of the time I can shift to first with an issue if I do this.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 14:49
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#5
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Owen_Dyneto
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Did the problem exist before you have the new synchros installed? Are you positive the clutch isn't dragging?

If you're certain the clutch isn't dragging and the problem began after the new synchros were installed, I'd suspect the synchro cones were set too close and the cold (heavier) gear oil is able to retard gear motion but as it warms it isn't able to do so. Beyond that I haven't a clue.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 15:22
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#6
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d c
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Check the pilot bushing, Input shaft/trans alignment, thrust bearing wear.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 16:01
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#7
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Tim Cole
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Hi tbird:

I think you pretty much isolate the symptom in your post.

Clutch drag. Thus, your cars fails a clutch spin down test.

Here is a list from a reference:


Causes of Improper Clutch Release

? Release linkage damaged, not properly adjusted or set
? Flywheel not surfaced or improperly surfaced before installing a new clutch
? Flywheel machined too thin or not manufactured to OEM specifications
? Improperly adjusted pivot ballsystem

? Clutch disc installed backwards
? Clutch disc hitting flywheel bolts
? Clutch disc binding on transmission input shaft
? Clutch disc runout due to bent input shaft
? Bent or damaged pressure plate assembly and/or clutch disc
? Clutch disc is too thick or has an excessive marcel spring
? Pressure plate has defective or damaged drive straps
? Damaged, worn, or improperly installed pivot bearing/bushing
? Damaged or worn throwout bearing collar

Obviously some of these do not apply to your car, but the condition is temperature sensitive. I had this problem once with a Speedster and the pilot bearing was seized. When the trans got hot the input shaft started dragging due to expansion. Once moving everything was okay.

Hope this helps.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 18:08
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#8
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tbirdman
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Thanks for all the response. I plan to get my mechanically inclined car members from my HCCA club over to the house to have a look at it. I plan to have everything ready to drop. Car will be on a lift and I do have a transmission jack.

Some of these guys in the HCCA are amazing. One guy was missing the crankcase from his Mercer engine. he decided to learn how to do foundry work. From pictures he built a mold and had it poured.

Posted on: 2014/12/2 19:28
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#9
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Mark Nichols
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Let me know what you find out. I am having the same issue with my 37 Super Eight. I adjusted the clutch petal, but it still exist. I am thinking that the issue is not synchronizers, because getting into first at a dead stop is the biggest issue I have. I can double clutch 2nd and 3rd fine, but at times it does not want to go into first at all, and if I come to a stop and the light immediately changes, I just have to wait 30 seconds or more to get it into 1st. What is the best way to test if the clutch is dragging?

Posted on: 2014/12/16 18:16
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Re: 32 packard gears clashing when warm
#10
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Owen_Dyneto
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What is the best way to test if the clutch is dragging?

Well, the classic method would be to start the engine and let it idle, depress the clutch, wait a few seconds, and try to put the car in gear. Clashing probably means either a much too heavy a gear oil or a dragging clutch though there are other possibilities already mentioned.

A more definitive test would be to drop the front universal joint (to remove the drag of the differential and wheel bearings), put the transmission in neutral, leave the clutch pedal raised, and start the engine. If the rear transmission yoke is turning you probably have a dragging clutch.

Posted on: 2014/12/16 18:33
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