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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#21
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

Carl Jr
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Very helpful discussion - and encouraging actually

Quote:

Leeedy wrote:
[quote]

Gotta ask... a "1952 Lincoln hydrostatic transmission"????? Do you mean a Hydramatic transmission?????



Good catch on my 'hydrostatic transmission' typo.
Somehow I read my 2011 notes "hydromatic" and typed that into the forum as "hydrostatic".
So it must be a "Hydra-Matic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydramatic

The transmission did sound jury-rigged when Dad described it.
But dad clearly grew up in the 'shade tree mechanic' days - so had a no-fear tolerance and interest for such things.
Dad made it sound like a 'common' modification for this model - or at least one that had been done several times by a shop in Pittsburgh's North Hills.
I don't recall dad mentioning which Lincoln that it came from - only that this gave an upgrade in reliable operation while driving.
Dad did mention hacking some mechanism to get the pushbuttons to work - that part is certainly not pretty. Not sure where to look for find that bit.
Bottom line- I guess it's just something to include as full-disclosure.

Thanks for the air cleaner orientation hint.
I actually found the air cleaner in the basement, along with an AM radio from what I believe was an even older Packard.
The air cleaner almost went to a metal scrap yard, but thankfully we had finally cleared enough stuff off of the hood to peer inside, and I realized the likely match.
I'll be sure to orient it correctly.

Dad said the Packard was running when he parked it.
I'll probably never know for sure why he didn't keep the Packard going.
The only certain facts are that he picked up a '57 built Mercedes-Benz 190SL in 1961, then got married in 1962, bought the house and started a family.
He certainly drove the 190SL as a daily commuter until 1964 when he parked that one due to some engine rebuild issues.
Mom mentioned that dad commandeered her car at some point, then kids dictated a VW microbus.
Vuola - the Packard and Mercedes became project cars waiting in what morphed into long-term storage.
Unlike the 190SL which he left parked with it's AllState battery installed and connected, he did pull the battery from the Packard -
and of course that's still sitting on the garage floor next to the Packard.

Anyhow, it is kind of fun to sift through the years and piece stories together.

I will take more pictures and share an update when I visit in the next couple weeks.
* more engine bay detail, e.g. transmission wiring if I can find it, and verify correct air cleaner orientation
* more underside pics, especially around the transmission

Stretch goals time permitting
* endoscope pics in each cylinder
* load cylinders with plenty of ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil
* attempt to hand crank


Can somebody confirm - is 13/16 correct size for these spark plugs? It'll be much easier if I go prepared...

Posted on: 2023/9/28 9:41
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#22
Home away from home
Home away from home

Leeedy
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Quote:

Carl Jr wrote:
Very helpful discussion - and encouraging actually

[quote]
Leeedy wrote:
[quote]

Gotta ask... a



Hello...

No need to do endoscope pics in cylinders or extraordinary measures.

And I believe if you scroll back through discussions on this site about starting V-8 Packards that have been sitting for extended period you will find my original recommendations/procedure.

I have started dozens and dozens and dozens of Packard V-8s over many years. I have always used Marvel Mystery Oil for a number of reasons.

My Quick Recommendations:

• Connect fuel line to a known, flowable source of clean gasoline, like a gas can (flow from the vehicle gas tank may be clogged and flex line to fuel pump may be perforated from age and rot).

• Remove air cleaner and check carb accuracy, completeness, operation, etc.

• Remove all spark plugs.

• Using a suitable method (I use a trigger-pump oiler) inject a squirt of MMO in each spark plug hole. Then allow to sit at least overnight.

• Attach a large breaker-bar type wrench and socket on the crankshaft vibration dampener bolt on front of the engine. Then slowly attempt to manually turn at least 1/2 revolution. If crank turns freely, allow to sit again overnight. If crank doesn't turn at this point, inject another MMO squirt, wait a day and try again. If still not turning, then you have bigger problems.

• If turning freely, then turn the crank at least two full turns. If all turns without problems, install known good spark plugs and reconnect wires in proper order.

• Connect battery and check for engine electrical operation. If all is well, turn the ignition key and crank over a few times. It should turn.

• It may be necessary to put a bit of gasoline down through the carburetor to prime a start. Be sure to install at least the flame arrestor section of the air cleaner.

The engine should start.

Posted on: 2023/9/28 15:20
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#23
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HH56
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As with inline 8s where it seems to be more common, another thing that can happen to long sitting engines is the valves can rust or become stuck in the guides. There have been a few who frequent the forum, myself included, who have done all the proper steps before trying to start V8 engines only to wind up with bent push rods because of one or two valves that were rusted tight.

Even turning the engine by hand may not be enough to feel a problem because it does not take much resistance to bend a pushrod. Unless the engine is completely blocked by more than one or two valves being stuck, damage can be done quickly and when it happens, be barely felt.

Posted on: 2023/9/28 15:40
Howard
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#24
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BigKev
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With my S8, I made sure I could spin the engine several times via the crank bolt before I ever tried the starter on it.

Posted on: 2023/9/28 15:42
-BigKev


1954 Packard Clipper Deluxe Touring Sedan -> Registry | Project Blog

1937 Packard 115-C Convertible Coupe -> Registry | Project Blog
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#25
Home away from home
Home away from home

humanpotatohybrid
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I would take the valve covers off and tap on all the valves with a dead blow hammer or hefty mallet (NOT a steel hammer). Search YouTube "checking for stuck valves with a hammer" or something like that for examples. There is a different sound for stuck vs. not stuck. Kind of "ting" vs "toonk". Sometimes these valves can get stuuuuck. Just be sure you're not hitting "stuck" valves directly into the cylinders if the cylinder is at TDC (you can tell if the plugs are out and you look at it).

Normally one could be concerned with oil leaks from the respective location from R&Ring valve covers without replacing the gaskets, but in an engine this old none of the seals are to be trusted anyway (i.e. it's the next guy's problem).

Posted on: 2023/9/28 17:35
'55 400. Needs aesthetic parts put back on, and electrical system sorted.
'55 Clipper Deluxe. Engine is stuck-ish.
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#26
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Home away from home

Leeedy
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I have learned my lesson for the umpteenth time. I was simply attempting to help here. Period. I have owned at least two dozen V-8 Packards. I have worked on ALL of them.

I have re-started countless V-8 Packards that have been left sitting. Countless.

And I have been doing this since the 1960s.

I started buying old cars in high school– and that was a long, long time ago. So I learned a few things.

I realize this experience does not count today on the internet. But...that's a long time and a lot of Packards. Even though all this experience can be minimized on an internet forum down to nothing.

One reason why I rarely do many replies of this sort is that internet forums are often not havens for solutions. They are havens for endless arguments. ENDLESS.

And the almighty "wikipedia" and YouTube.

So. pooh-pooh my start-up recommendation. It has worked countless times. I have yet to bend valves or destroy an engine. And IF one pays attention when manually rotating a V-8, resistance with all of the spark plugs removed can be obvious.

All I am saying is that it is not necessary to perform brain surgery on an engine that was stored indoors and running when parked. Nor should it be necessary to be beating on valves and rockers with a hammer– no matter what YouTube or anyone else says.

There are exceptions to every procedure in automobiles. If anyone would know, it ought to be me. I have written my share of factory workshop manuals and corporate service bulletins at a professional OEM level of the automotive industry. Covering hundreds of thousands of cars.

Have fun and I will remain silent with no further comments on this wonderful topic.

Posted on: 2023/9/29 8:20
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#27
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Ernie Vitucci
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Good afternoon...Pay attention to Leeedy...He knows what he is talking about. Enrie in Arizona

Posted on: 2023/9/29 16:18
Caretaker of the 1949-288 Deluxe Touring Sedan
'Miss Prudence' and the 1931 Model A Ford Tudor 'Miss Princess'
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#28
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

Carl Jr
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Thanks again to everyone for all the feedback.

I've come asking advice as somebody who has looked at old cars from the outside for a long time,
and as someone who is finally taking the plunge to turn wrenches on rusty old nuts and bolts.

So I greatly appreciate the benefit and value of y'alls experience.
Even with (or maybe because of?) differing opinions,
this interaction is so much more helpful than trying to find useful info via Wiki-Tube-Etc !

Sounds like there is a well established process to start long-sitting Packard engines that's worked great in countless cases over many years.
But it also sounds like some have experienced possibly avoidable problems.
Respect and appreciation all around.

In my case, the goal is to asses & prep the Patrician for sale with relatively small effort and minimal risk of degrading vintage parts.

I would love to hear that engine purr or roar...
It would be different if I lived closer than 1,200 miles away from the garage.
End of the day, it would be great fun, but I have to leave getting her up and running to the buyer.

FWIW - I plan the endoscope inspection because -

well, it's fun and easy
I anyhow plan to soak the cylinders as a courtesy to the future buyer,
I won't have a chance to pull the Packard engine apart,
and I'm curious -
I'd like to compare this Packard with 68K miles to it's stablemate the Mercedes with 32K miles that shared the same garage for the same 58 years.

In the Mercedes case, I can see all kinds of rust on the CamShaft - first documented here
https://youtu.be/2_8hWgg5m3M?si=hhneQ97BY3FpDau6.
Turns out Dad said he had a problem like the timing chain slipped - so then turning the engine over broke the camshaft.
So that rusty camshaft in the video was the new replacement,
purchased from the Packard/MercedesBenz dealership for $32.40 and installed in September of 1964,
then acquiring all that rust wile sitting ever since...
Also, I'm told that various engine bearings are surely oxidized, and that any loose rust from the rings,
connecting rods and crankshaft would form a very nice abrasive grit - and likely prematurely age finished surfaces.
I did use a pry-bar to exercise each valve on the Mercedes - they were all loose.
But as a cautious neophyte I'm generally playing things safe.
Hence we'll just do a full-up engine rebuild for the Mercedes, instead of chasing immediate gratification.
And I plan to give the same option to the next Packard owner.

FWIW - this shows my first peek into the Mercedes cylinder #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8awSH7U1TE
- look closely and you'll see the Packard drivers' door at the start of that video.

Fun fact - when I finally got into the other Mercedes cylinders - I found a moth in restful slumber on piston #1
- no doubt 'sleeping' there for most or all of my life.

FWIW- this is the endoscope I used
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08P5RZK44

Pretty cool little toy.
I've also found it helpful to avoid pipes and wires when drilling into drywall...

Lessons learned from the Mercedes, I found that 20 or 30 ml of Marvel Mystery Oil seeped past the rings in 2 or 3 days for most of the cylinders.
But one cylinder apparently had rusty enough rings that it took a full 2 or 3 months of soaking before it seeped past.
And now that same amount of MMO will leak past the rings in that cylinder in just a couple days.
So I figure the patient soak has done some good.
Even though I won't hand-crank the Mercedes before rebuild - perhaps this extra soaking will make it easier to pull apart and restore.

Anyhow - thanks again!

Posted on: 2023/9/29 17:14
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#29
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

Carl Jr
See User information
Here are more pics, especially around the unusual transmission.
Can somebody confirm how much of the drivetrain appears to be Packard?

FWIW -

I pulled the plugs for 1 and 5 and put Marvel Mystery oil in those.

The other plugs were hard to get at with the tools I had, or seemed tight so I left them alone.
We'll leave engine assessment & restoration to the buyer.

Attach file:



jpg  20231007_195425348_iOS- Engine Drivers Side 5.jpg (410.19 KB)
225464_652ac8454ebd4.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_195533279_iOS-Engine Drivers Side 3.jpg (436.74 KB)
225464_652ac853af6b2.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_195525822_iOS- Engine Drivers Side 4.jpg (417.16 KB)
225464_652ac85dc1f35.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_195439365_iOS- Engine Passenger Side 4.jpg (387.84 KB)
225464_652ac8702635f.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_195453846_iOS- Engine Passenger Side 2.jpg (407.82 KB)
225464_652ac87bad146.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_153435424_iOS- Engine Passenger Side 3.jpg (388.51 KB)
225464_652ac889b2fbf.jpg 1920X1440 px

Posted on: 2023/10/14 11:57
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Re: 1956 Packard Patrician for Project or Parts- Asking $3,000
#30
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

Carl Jr
See User information
Quote:

Carl Jr wrote:
Here are more pics, continued-especially around the unusual transmission.
Can somebody confirm how much of the drivetrain appears to be Packard?

FWIW -

I pulled the plugs for 1 and 5 and put Marvel Mystery oil in those.

The other plugs were hard to get at with the tools I had, or seemed tight so I left them alone.
We'll leave engine assessment & restoration to the buyer.

Attach file:



jpg  20231007_152747761_iOS-Transmission 1.jpg (252.85 KB)
225464_652ac8e46e300.jpg 1920X947 px

jpg  20231007_152714411_iOS- Transmission 2.jpg (338.02 KB)
225464_652ac8ef532b9.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_152714411_iOS- Transmission 3.jpg (387.59 KB)
225464_652ac8fb0da6b.jpg 1440X1920 px

jpg  20231007_152821383_iOS- Transmission 4.jpg (439.55 KB)
225464_652ac90381a19.jpg 1920X1440 px

jpg  20231007_152905217_iOS- Transmission 5.jpg (466.59 KB)
225464_652ac9192304c.jpg 1920X1440 px

Posted on: 2023/10/14 12:00
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