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I am interested in but a 1950 Packard series 23 Briggs body number 2372-3996. The owner wants to sell me the car with a bill of sale he got from the original owner. So two bills of sale one from the original owner to him and then one to me. I live in NJ and I don't think it is possible?? Is it ? Is there s way to check the history of the car with a VN. Not having a VIN I don't know how to check the history of the car. Is the body number sound right? The first four numbers are body type and the second set are the production number? No serial number? Should I buy this car ? Thanks David

If the number 2372-3996 is the number stamped on the metal plate on the cowl just forward of the driver's window, it is the official "vehicle number", or VN. Vehicle identification numbers or VINs, the 14-digit gov't mandated numbering system, didn't come along until long after Packard was gone. If the metal plate in front of the driver's windshield is missing and the 2372-3996 is on a small tag near the heater box, then your original vehicle number is not on the vehicle for substantiation. New Jersey titles such vehicles by vehicle number, not motor numbers. There is no such thing as a serial number of these cars.

Are you saying you're buying the car from a state that issues titles, but you won't get one? If so that may present a serious problem. But if you're buying it from a non-title state (New York for example) all NJ should require is a pencil tracing and/or photograph of the number plate, a bill of sale, and a prior registration. I live in NJ and have been through this a few times, it might take several visits to the DMV but as long as the original vehicle number plate is intact and the vehicle isn't in a registry of stolen cars you should be OK.

Though the paint may have worn off, here's what the vehicle number plate should look like.

PS - in the 23rd series the VN and the Briggs tag number were not necessarily the same!!

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The 2372-etc is the vin #, such as it was in the day, and is the serial number and is usually also the body number. It will appear on the Briggs body tag on the front of the cowl, and also on a larger square plate on the top of the cowl on the driver's side.

You will have to check with the NJ DMV to see if this is going to fly. It might if the original owner is from a no title state.

There are all sorts of ways around this problem but they are often costly and time consuming. The seller should be prepared to make a major concession for a car with inadequate paperwork.

G'day David(Spparky82),
to PackardInfo. See you raised this over at the AACA Website with various comments received. But O_D's advice here, seeing he's been through similar exercises a number of times, is very encouraging.

And, when you buy the 2372, I invite you to include it in the Packard Owner's Registry here on PackardInfo.

The owner now states the car is original form NJ and he want to sell me the car with 2 bill of sales. Is that possible? He did mention, with a bill of sale he got from the original owner that lived in NJ and the owner now lives in PA he stated with a bill of sale with would only get a salvage title. I don't know why.

I am farmilar with the pencil sketching or photo of the numbers.

I'd be VERY insistent on getting the New Jersey title, it will make everything much simplier especially if the owner on that title is the same person who has signed the first of the bills of sale.

That failing, I'd insist the current owner get a title in his name from his state, and then transfer ownership to you. He wants to sell the car, let him bear the burden of the paperwork.

I thought this practice sometimes called " jumping title" was a no no for a privete sale. Only a dealer is allowed to aquire a car and resell it without ever filing for title . You will have issues with this in some states. Why has the current owner not titled or registered the car? Avoiding these pitfalls by purchasing a car from an owner who has registered and driven and cared for a vintage car and who has paperwork and history of prior owners is just one of the reasons these such cars are more valuable and command a higher price. Certainly avoiding wasted time, headaches and hassles upon regi and title are worth a premium.

I have a question on the VN the last set of numbers are the production number 3996 is what the seller is telling me. How many where made ? Someone corrected it with 2996 which one is it. Is the seller no good??

If indeed the stamped sequence # was 3996, it's the 1996th 2372 produced as the base or starting number was 2001. Packard kept no records of actual production by body type but it has been estimated (Robert Neal) that 4335 such cars were made, 1835 titled as 1949 models and the balance as 1950 models.