Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Hello fellow enthusiasts, so I have had my 41' Clipper for nearly a year and have been working on getting the car road worthy since I purchased it. The car has not ran since approximately 93' and is now a fantastic running and driving car. Now for my problem, the car has an annoying ticking noise at idle, in 1st and 2nd gears while driving. I can't tell if the noise is present in third. The noise goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed and will resume when released. I removed the transmission, inspected every gear and bearing and only replaced the clutch shaft bearing and driving shaft assembly due to less than ok preload and slight roughness, everything else looked perfect. Unfortunately this did not even change the noise for the better or worse. I have since used an app to determine the noise frequency, calculated the speeds of every rotating transmission component in relation to engine speed measured with a tach and found the noise to be at the exact speed of 1st gear on the driving shaft. This was already replaced so I'm a little perplexed at this point. I also calculated the possible bearing fault frequencies for every internal bearing and the only one close is the cage for the pocket bearing between the clutch and driving shafts. Any thoughts or cases of this on anyone's car?

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Tim,

You definitely are taking a very technical approach, which I think is fascinating.

Does the noise go away if you are moving, put the car in neutral and let out the clutch?

Bill

Thank you Bill,

The noise actually becomes faster (higher frequency) when coasting with the transmission in 2nd and clutch depressed. This is evident when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. However, I can't recall if the noise is present with the shifter in neutral and coasting.

Thanks,

Tim

Hi Tim,

Yes, I too was impressed by the very technical calculations and deductions you have come up with. I have nowhere near the technical finesse to be able to traffic in such complicated engineering physics, but I HAVE chased a few 'noises' in vehicles in my day, some successfully, some not. One thing I have learned is that they don't always come from where they SOUND like they do. Noises can migrate around a running, moving vehicle, and be very deceptive. Unless you have put the car on a dyno and listened with a stethoscope to the tranny, could the noise be a bad throw-out bearing, or even a U-joint that only ticks under a certain torque load?? (i.e. first gear)
If is is definitely the transmission, I had a gearbox years ago that made a squeaking noise and it turned out to be missing needle bearings from a sloppy rebuild job. Unfortunately, the possibilities are myriad. Hope you find the answer without too much grief. Oh, and BTW - welcome to Packard Info. Chris.

Throw out bearing??

John,

I wish it was that cut and dry, but the throw-out bearing does not make contact with the pressure plate fingers because of a small spring attached to the clutch shaft bearing retainer.

Tim

Chris,

Thank you for your input and thoughts on the noise. The reason that I’m almost convinced that it’s in the transmission is that I can hear the noise frequency decrease at idle, when the clutch pedal is depressed. As if I can hear the transmission internals slowing to a stop. However, internal inspection of the transmission does not reveal any faults. I spent nearly 20 years as a transmission/drivetrain specialist for Ford and always dreaded cars with manual transmission noises for this exact reason.

Good Evening...I wonder, did you put your ear on the top of the cain shifter, or does it have a column shifter...and let it tell you what it might? Sometimes it will tell you interesting things...Just another thought from a Model A Ford noise I was chasing for a customer of the shop where I volunteer...turned out the U Joint coupling had been assembled with one piece missing...We could not figure it out...many, many bad words, then we put the damn thing up on the rack and let it run and stood under it with a cup of coffee and a stethoscope and finally figured it out...Ernie in Arizona with grease on the end of my nose!

TimE: I too commend you on the depth of your investigation. I word of caution however would be the faith you might have in your cage speed calculations in that the radial load on the bearing has a significant impact on the actual cage speed, along with lubrication specifics.

I’ve been reading all of my old ‘Motor’s Manuals’ but haven’t found an easy answer . . . sorry. Actually the trouble shooting guides in the transmissions section were dropped sometime in the late ‘40s or early ‘50s.

Now for a round of ‘twenty questions’:

Is the car equipped with an ‘Econo-Drive’, aka overdrive?

May I assume the first/reverse slider rotates only when the output shaft is rotating, but in your idle case the slider was not rotating, yet the ticking was present? There was no mention whether the noise was present in reverse. I guess I assumed when you used the term ‘idle’; one the car was not moving, two the transmission was in neutral, and finally the first/reverse slider was not rotating? If this is TRUE then everything was rotating except for the first/reverse slider and the output shaft. And then when the clutch was depressed all of the rotation was brought to rest just as you said.


When the clutch is depressed, and the vehicle speed is zero, then all elements within the transmission should come to rest eventually . . . perhaps a few seconds with warm oil, and the normal warm idle speed. The next diagnostic test might be; establish a forward speed in first, and confirm the ticking noise is present. Then with the car still rolling depress the clutch, and note whether the noise is present. If the car is equipped with an overdrive let’s conduct this test twice, once with the OD mechanically enabled (cable IN), and again with the OD mechanically disabled (cable OUT). Considering the noise is also present in second gear this test should be repeated in that gear also. That would make a total of four test cases. To Chris’ point, the purpose of this test sequence would be to isolate whether the noise is generated by the transmission. If the ticking is still there when the car is moving forward (clutch depressed) and it stops only when you brake to a stop.

I’m thinking about the countershaft (aka cluster gear) thrust bearings (bronze washers), and whether the entire cluster gear has excessive fore/aft motion. It looks like there would be an axial force, proportional to torque, on the cluster gear except when the transmission is in third gear. I’m trying to make a connection between cluster gear axial position and the ticking. I haven’t found the service limits on the cluster gear clearance.

Finally, if the ticking is interference between a rotating part and the stationary case then you might find magnetic wear metal in the oil. Same would be TRUE if the 2nd gear cluster and the 1st gear main were interfering. I believe there are drain plugs with a built-in magnetics that might help determine if a gear to gear, or a gear to case interference is causing the noise.

That’s all I’ve got tonight . . . By the way try to catch the TV news tonight or tomorrow. You should see a segment about snow in the northern sections of Phoenix today. We had a bit, but not a lot, of graupel where I live.

dp

G'day TimE,
See these are your first posts on PackardInfo, so but unfortunately can't offer any advice.

However, I invite you to include your '41 Clipper in the Packard Owner's Registry.