Packard Forum Index » Post-War (1946-54)

It's interesting that the noise was not there when you initially started up your car, or at least not as noticeable as it is now. That tends to rule out things that you haven't touched such as wrist pin bushings or piston slap, both of which should not be as pronounced when you pulled plug wires and the cylinder wasn't under compression. It would also indicate that something changed from when you first started your engine, which could be your head gasket.

If you do have a bad head gasket you should be able to confirm that with a compression test.

The amount of water you describe does seem to be excessive.

When I put my head on my 327 I was a bit paranoid about it leaking, so I torqued it down in more stages than recommended. Then I brought the engine up to temp, retorqued it, and then did so a gain a few times after until all head nuts were tight.

Keep us posted!

That was my thought as well; wrist pin noise doesn't just appear on its own. However if he had to plane the manifolds and replace gaskets, and do the valves, it's possible that an exhaust leak or valve noise would have masked it.

For now I am voting head gasket as ½ or ¾ turn at 20 TPI is a whole 1/32 of additional movement; quite a lot for a broad gasket.

Quote:

Reading this, I thought WOW!! How could this be?

Then I realised that besides gasoline, engines use air, which contains water vapour and other chemicals which could also transform during the combustion process into water. It not magic after all, pity .

Gasoline is a hydrocarbon, with a lot more hydrogen than carbon. Burning hydrogen makes water. Any moisture in the air drawn into the engine will pass through it and out the exhaust, but most all of the moisture in exhaust is water that results from the combustion process. Burning a gallon of gasoline emits about 24 pounds of water. Gasoline weighs about 6.5 pounds per gallon. The added weight is the result of oxygen added. Supposedly, burning a gallon of gasoline results in about 25 pounds of CO2. I'm not worried about either the water or the CO2, since both are absolutely necessary for green and growing things to survive and thrive. In very cold weather, you could add a 20 foot length of exhaust pipe to your tail pipe and run the engine at idle long enough to consume a gallon of gasoline and collect something over 2 gallons of condensate water.

** Expert opinion seems to vary on how much water burning a gallon of gasoline will release. The definition and formula of gasoline are not rigidly fixed, but the variation in the amount of water released duriing combustion seems to be too broad to be explained by that. Various sources state that from about one gallon to close to three gallons of water per gallon of gasoline burned are released.
I believe that the quantity is closer to the high end of the range. Burning other substances also releases water, so the lower figures may reflect lower percentages of hydrogen in a specific gasoline formula and higher percentages of other substances. Like weather and gender, combustion has become politicized, so some "science" may be more dogma than science.

My vote is for a blown head gasket as well. Should be easy to diagnose and relatively easy to fix.

I don't think your ticking sound is what mine was, but here's my story.

This is a video of my "tapping" sound. My Cavalier had been in storage for a long time and was not running or driving when I bought it. The inside of my engine is coated, apparently something that Packard didn't do. Interesting.
drive.google.com/file/d/1GP24x44QBN-ww6j8Tll6vkgHY_nT-PsD/view?usp=sharing

My ticking sound would come and go, but didn't seem to have a correlation to temp. I had hoped it was a lifter and would clear itself up with a bit of driving and some additives, but no luck.

I narrowed it down to cylinder #4, by pulling plug wires, so whatever was making the noise was impacted by the combustion cycle. Rod bearing? Sounded too high and not a deep enough sound. Wrist pin bushing? Maybe. Piston slap? Maybe. The piston below, #4, shows a bit of scuffing on the side, which made me think maybe it could be piston slap.




So I got crazy one weekend and pulled the pan and had a look at #4 connecting rod. Interesting the #4 on the rod was not factory stamped. This made me suspicious, which I would find out later had nothing to do with my noise.




Next I pulled the head and then pulled out piston #4. It had a bit of rubbing on the side so I thought maybe piston slap, or maybe a wrist pin, although the wrist pin didn't seem to be the culprit.

Measured everything up and piston slap seemed like it could be possible, but the symptoms weren't really correct. That is piston slap should be more pronounced when cold, but diminish as the engine warms up. My noise randomly came and went.

While I was this far in I pulled valves as well because I was going to check everything. While I'm still not 100% sure, I'm pretty confident an extremely worn exhaust valve guide on #4 was the source of my noise.
drive.google.com/file/d/12eFztSgXeUX1EYDX5LRMHrhTu2C9wogm/view?usp=drive_link

So to make sure I didn't have a noise after putting my engine back together I, had the pistons coated, replaced rings, replaced valve guides & some valves, and cleaned & tested valve springs & lifters. Thank goodness when all was said and done, no more tapping sound.


Replacing valve guides produced a bit of anxiety! Once I had the right tool made it went well.






Everything is clean clean clean, because cleaning parts is what I'd do when I was thinking about what I should do next.............there was lots of thinking!






My redneck valve spring tester. LOL






Lifter tester inspired by Ross.

One other thing I had on my 1951 Henney-Packard Combination (5-main 327, hydraulic lifters) turned out to be something called rod alignment. The engine would rattle when gunning it without any load but it was fine under load and it idled quietly. I thought it was hydraulic lifter noise but with it all adjusted and having the proper valve gap, the noise persisted. Apparently rod alignment was a known thing as it was in the service manual or service counselors but it was new to me so maybe also something to consider.

That piston shows little wear. The light scuffing may be due to overchoking, overheating, or high loading prior to break-in. Some engines are prone to rod misalignment, and checking and straightening used rods is a routine procedure. I think the robust design of the Packard rods and crankshaft and block made it unusual to find rod misalignment in a Packard engine, barring something like a seized or broken piston or a severely overheated rod or wrist pin bearing. A stiff wrist pin bearing might lead to scuffing or a noise. Sometimes, a fuel pump can develop a tapping noise.

Proper valve guide clearance makes accurate grinding of valves easier and it will prolong the life of the valves and help keep valve to tappet clearance stable, all of which contributes to quiet operation.

Regarding water in the exhaust, since I've been adjusting valves and using the stethoscope, I'd say the engine has idled for 30+ minutes, maybe more. I cranked it yesterday and it blew out a small amount. Maybe the previous days had blown out most of the idling water.

I will say that the engine has never run better for me. The analog meter at curb idle swings +/- maybe 1 or 2 RPM at about 340. At that speed the vacuum is 16 +/- maybe .5.

Under the above conditions, every 5 - 10 seconds there is a bubble or two at the radiator fill. I was expecting a lot more.

The compression is mostly about 120 but goes from 115 to 125.

If the engine runs well, I'd drive the car around the local area at moderate speeds and loads, making each outing at least 15 miles or half an hour in duration. More time and distance is better, especially in colder weather. This will prevent accumulation of water in the engine and exhaust system and prevent carbon build-up. A newly assembled engine will usually run best after a few hours run time under normal driving conditions. Keep an eye on things. If you can't drive the car due to weather or road conditions, at least run the engine at a fast idle, 1500 RPM, for 15 minutes or more each time you start it, if at all possible. It take time for the entire engine to reach operating temperature, and it takes time at operating temperature for normal moisture to be driven off. When running at idle in cool weather, the engine may never fully warm up. The best operating condition from the engine's viewpoint is running about 50 MPH on the open road all day long. Short runs and extended idling, especially in winter weather, are about the worst.