Packard Forum Index » Modification Discussion

Are we getting old?

Tom

Every day we get a little older.

Gusha,

Nice find.

This is dated 1951, when was power brakes offered on Packards?
I assume this is at a car show for the 1952 models?
Any idea where this was?

Was the car seat from a convertible?
It looks like a clutch or standard brake pedal by the woman shoe.
A guess that you could test the easamatic and standard brake side by side?

I don't remember the woman from another photo, but I wonder how tired she got demonstrating.

Quote:

The pic was part of a series, related to the history of Pittsburgh.


Quote:

-> 40% less.
When it comes to demonstrate her beauty there are woman who resemble endurance trained athletes.

I am a newbie to Packards, having dragged home a 1954 Clipper Panama. I hate to dredge up what seems to be a very hotly debated topic, but................ I am looking for any updates to this post, I have purchased a 65 year old car that currently has no brakes and as you know it does not matter how well it runs if it does not stop. for safety sake I plan to rebuild the system from the ground up. I cannot rely of what may have been done by previous owners. Likely nothing. If I am going to do any modern upgrades to the brake system, now would be the time. I prefer to keep the car stock BUT would consider a brake upgrade in the interest of Safety. I have owned and worked on several antique cars since 1981.
I have not talked to my insurance Company yet, which will be a factor in any decisions to alter the car from origional.
So has anyone done anything to their cars brake system that has not already been mentioned in the 7 page discussion? If so what? I see a company that appears to sell an entire conversion kit to the tune of $1500.00 for a total conversion. Thanks for any advice based on personal experience that you might have. Bill

Welcome to Packards.

As you said, this is a very hotly debated subject and there have been many approaches and thoughts. Some will argue the TreadleVac or BTV for short was used by many cars of the era and was reliable then and if properly rebuilt and maintained will be reliable now. Just as many will argue the BTV is an accident waiting to happen because it is an old technology single line system and prone to sudden and complete failure if neglected, badly rebuilt, or if a single but vital rubber part fails to seal.

The big issue with Packards and changing the BTV to something modern is pedal ratio. The way the BTV operates with it having a long stroke narrow ram displacing fluid as the ram inserts in the cylinder, the Packard mounting position and 1:1 pedal ratio is acceptable. When trying to go with anything modern such as a master with a wide short stroke piston pushing the fluid ahead of it, the pedal ratio needs to be upped to somewhere between 3 and 4:1 -- ideally around 3.5. That alone requires a new or completely revised pedal assy because there is no way to increase the ratio and maintain a stock pedal.

I would be curious what complete kit you found or were thinking of. Am assuming that you are talking disc brakes when you say complete kit?? To the best of my knowledge there are no power brake kits that will directly drop in the original space with the original pedal which is why so many variations have been tried. Any of the brake kits will probably require a relocation of the unit to somewhere higher on the firewall. That can be problematic on some models due to space or location of some hard to move components and definitely visible as a mod. The BTV may not have enough volume for discs so something modern will probably be needed.

Some have thought under the floor might work as far as minimizing visible change but due to space limitations fitting a large diameter vacuum booster under can be problematic. Possibly it could be positioned in a place where the floor could be cut out then lifted and boxed in to raise the booster a bit so as to not have something vulnerable hanging below the frame. Don't know if anyone has tried. There is another approach being contemplated for under the floor using a smaller manual master with a remote and out of the way power booster but anything under the floor also requires a pedal change. Even with the stock 51-4 manual system it is problematic to go to a dual master because of the original master mounting location and method. 55-6 might be more doable because of the different master location but I don't believe any of those ideas have gone to much more than contemplation yet. There is one fellow who is adding discs on a 52 and I believe is planning a conversion to a manual firewall mounted dual master with suspended pedal and a remote power unit for power to the front discs. That is still in the planning stage so details may change.

The ElectroBoost has been used by a few who have dropped it in the stock location in place of a BTV and upped the boost of the power unit to compensate for the low pedal ratio. In my opinion, that is a recipe for disaster. If the power unit fails you still only have the 1:1 ratio which with a 1" diameter unboosted master piston is barely enough to slow the car, not stop it in an emergency. The ElectroBoost is also 12v which would require a voltage conversion on pre 55 models.

At the least, I would go for new lines, hoses, cylinders etc for sure. If you have the BTV rebuilt by a competent rebuilder or get an exchange unit from Kanter or Max it should be good for several years and you keep the stock look but only if you are keeping drums. The competent rebuilder part is the key. The BTV is not that complicated but knowing where failures happen and what might be marginal and need replacing but is not part of a kit is important. Some of the big well known multimake places and chains have been found to be less than advertised when it comes to the BTV.

After the BTV rebuild if you still feel more could be gained then you can think about the approach you want to go toward installing a modern unit because you could research and do it without as much pressure.

G'day BillP618,
to PackardInfo. I invite you to include your '54 Clipper Panama in the Packard Owner's Registry.

Unless you're planning on putting in a modern V8 and racing it, disk brakes are overkill and not only unnecessary but also require a whole lot more work, engineering and expense than simply the price of a kit.

Rebuild the Bendix TreadleVac master and booster yourself (it's easy), rebuild or replace all the wheel cylinders (kits or new available from Napa) and flexible hoses with new (also available from Napa), and have your original shoes relined and the drums turned if there is material enough to do so. Napa may even have exchange shoes but personally I prefer to try to use the ones I already have when possible. Once all assembled, thoroughly flush the system with synthetic DOT4 fluid and pressure bleed and you're good to go - or good to stop, in this case.

Thanks for all the responses. I agree that trying to do a conversion from parts would be costly and Still be a liability in the event of any failure. The system used by Packard was used in several makes of cars at the time and was engineered by Packard and I assume along with Bendix Corp. I agree that ALL of the brake components need to be replaced and that the E (parking) brake cables be working and the rear brakes kept in tight adjustment. Previous owner replaced wheel cylinders, hoses and lines but did not touch the Bendix treadle vac or the attached Master cylinder. I go to car shows and cruise nights see this system many many times. Hope to find a good rebuilder in the Chicago Area. I will look at Kanter as well. I have restored a couple cars in the last 35 years but this one is the first one that with just a few mouse clicks I can find parts and great information from groups like this. ( It has been quite a while. I will be asking Transmission questions as well.

I'd never heard that Packard played any role in Bendix's development of the Bendix Treadle-Vac. Anyone have anything to the contrary?