Packard Forum Index » Post-War (1946-54)

Hi,

I bought a 52 200 Deluxe two years ago. The car sat since 2010 but was running prior to that. I was told that this car was using in the movie "Men of Honor" and another one but that's for some other day.

It's mostly original with 6 volt POS ground and all the engine parts. Missing the air duct from blower to heater and also the front passenger fender filler panel. No radio or A/C but came with wipers where I think the hissing noise near the firewall is from but I can't find which hose is damaged or from what I recently read, possibly reversed on the wiper.

I do have questions about the instrument panel. The speedometer and the oil + bat lights work. I can see at least one instrument bulb for speedometer working when I turn on the lights. It doesn't dim but maybe it never did. The map lights or the rear dome light not working but possibly burnt bulbs.
Neither the fuel, temp nor clock are working. I searched and read all the previous comments. I did do a test by shortening the temp sending unit wire against the body for less than a second and saw the needle move 1/4 in. I decided to remove the sending unit and replace it. Found TS6464 that would fit as others have mentioned BUT it fits into a coupler first as my old one did. the coupler or adapter is the one that screws into the engine block and the temp unit into it. I'm OK with this if this was the original design but something tells me it wasn't but I also didn't find anyone mentioning it except that TS6464 fit into theirs. My question is that with the adapter, only the tip of the sending unit is exposed to the water and is that enough to pull the correct temp? the gauge doesn't move at all. I had the engine running and checked the temp in different places of the engine, radiator, water lines and most are between 160 to 180 F. The exhaust was around 380 to 450 F. I read that the thermostat opens around 170. For now, I'm not worried about overheating but would love to solve this mystery! I had the water pump restored as it was busted and what killed the car from driving and I cleaned the engine water "pipe" and flushed it before installing the new pump and belt.

I did also do a simple the instrument cluster test with the cluster just pulled from the dash. the one fuse after the two breakers looked solid and would go into the clock if I'm not mistaking. The two breakers were showing 5+ volts between the leads so I figured they are OK as well.

I didn't try to check the fuel sender as it could have stuck and figured do my explorations and investigations from temp unit which was easier to troubleshoot.

So what are my next steps to fix the temp gauge?

The car starts nicely (came with a electric pump that didn't work and I replaced it with another 6 volt as I read many used them initially to help avoid vapor block and soon after the car runs, I shut the electric pump and the mechanical one work fine) and I did drive it around the block. Oh yeah, the Bendix Treadel Vac was completely crystallized and I had to pull it out and most of the lines to clear them and rebuilt the brake booster (again, thanks to the many forum comments and step by step dismantling and rebuilding it!). The wheel cylinders looked great and appeared to have newer rubber and the grease looked good on the hubs.

I do need to check the tranny and diff fluids. The engine oil was changed and it came with an oil filter and I didn't see any sludge which was a good sign. The engine purrs (except for the hissing noise that I need to locate) for this giant beast compared to my smaller British cars!!! I see years of grease and dirt on the axles and I haven't yet added any additional grease to any of the fittings.

My final question and sorry for the VERY long intro, is about the switch right below the light switch. Is this the overdrive? the wire/cable is cut and while 95% or more of the wiring is original, I do see few new wires here and there and in some places, the shield is broken and for now, I try to tape it to avoid shorting it. I have yet to check the blower (not worked as far as I can tell and I read that it has its own fuse) and the wipers need to be tested (maybe I'll find the bad hose)!

Thanks and any input is appreciated to resolve the instrument cluster issue as I don't want to drive without temp gauge!

Anatole

Welcome to the forum.

The wiper motor is on the engine side of the firewall and from 51-4 no vacuum for anything factory comes inside the car unless there is a fairly rare optional rear window wiper. The wiper switch on the steering column moves a Bowden type cable which connects at the motor and moves the on/off valve. For a factory windshield washer, it gets vacuum from the end port on the wiper motor. For output a hose would come inside for water but not vacuum. Aftermarket or generically installed washers might have two hoses going to a push button under the dash and one would carry vacuum all the time. With the missing hose piece on the air duct it is possible you are hearing something in the engine compartment being transmitted and somewhat amplified by the time you hear it inside the car.

The temp sensor would normally thread right into the head without any adapter needed but the heads are interchangeable back to 48 and there were different senders used then. If it is an older head that could be one reason the 6464 needs an adapter instead of directly threading. If the gauge moves by grounding the wire at least that part is working. As a quick check on the sender you could try the sender with various water temperatures. Here is a chart a poster worked out at various degrees. The ohm meter would have one lead on the body of the sender and the other on the terminal with nothing else connected.

The instruments work on a nominal 5v which is provided by an instrument voltage regulator. The regulator is the larger rectangular box directly at the bottom center of the instrument cluster with two screw type terminals. On either side of the regulator are smaller rectangular circuit breakers having two studs on each for the terminals. The regulator gets a 6v input on the terminal toward the middle but pulses so that six volts is intermittently turned off and on which results in an AVERAGE value of 5v out at the end terminal and on to the temp and fuel gauges.

If the car has overdrive it will have a plastic knob mounted on a pull out shaft under the dash on the right of the steering column. Anything under the light switch is an accessory. Without a radio it is hard to say what you have because normally there would be a power antenna switch or a rear speaker fader rheostat in that location with a bezel and knob to match the others. Perhaps it had a radio at one time or a previous owner added something.

There is a factory wiring diagram in the literature section if you have not already downloaded it although those usually only show the base radio and heater for accessories. Schematics for the antenna and fader are in the accessories section of the service manual.

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Anatole - if you're seeing one light in the instrument panel, then you should be getting power to all the lights. So my guess is the rest of the bulbs are bad and need to be replaced. If they are not dimming then I would think the rheostat on the headlight switch is probably corroded. I just went through the process of pulling my switch and cleaning the whole thing. Works much better now and is not terribly difficult. Helps to have the front seat out of the car.

The fuel sender might be bad. When I pulled my old one it was rusted and corroded. I picked up a new sender from Auto City Classics for $45 or something like that. New one is all stainless.

-Kevin

G'day Anatole(toto_pdx),
to PackardInfo. I invite you to include your '52 200 Deluxe in the Packard Owner's Registry.

thank you Howard and Kevin!

I think the switch below the headlight might be my washer fluid. You can see the same combination on few Packards online when you google Packard dash. It's a push button and has 3 wires/2 connections but I'll know more once I remove the switch as it's very hard to see even with a phone camera and flashlight.

The hissing sound appears to be near the carb's climatic control/vacuum but I need more research. It might be a cracked intake but the sounds doesn't change when the RPM goes up or down or at least I didn't notice it. I did disconnect the hose from the T that goes to the canister and power brake and I can feel the vacuum and nothing changed. I'm assuming that the top inlet is for the vacuum and the bottom is for the hose that goes to the filter for the atmospheric pressure. I'm not sure if it really makes a difference since I don't recall any open/close port that wouldn't allow air to go one way and not the other but the Bendix has too many parts! BTW, mine has the two hose connections rather than the little box (filter?) as seen in the step by step instructions.

I did start testing the temp sender as Howard suggested. I'll hopefully have the full test tomorrow.

As far as the engine itself, based on this sitepackardinfo.com/xoops/html/downloads/PackardEngineSerials.pdf , my engine block has K419893 and this engine was for a 250/300 and not a 200. So, it might have been swapped with a larger engine some time in its life unless one could have ordered one with a larger engine for the 200 Deluxe (I doubt). The head has 426408 288 STD 327 AT stamped on it. That said, most Packard parts say the sender unit fits all 51-56. Do I have a different heads that came for a 250/300 block? I believe the threads on the adapter was some weird 11/16th. Was this in the older heads? do the 327 engines use the same sender unit as the 288?

I have attached few pictures for reference.

Thanks
Anatole

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The switch below the lights is the power antenna. Someone has drilled out your head, perhaps for an aftermarket sender. The regular sender should screw right in.

If there is a hiss near the base of your carb, the starter switch is assembled wrong. Remove the one screw that holds it to the carb and slowly pull it out. Now remove the cylindrical plunger. The notch on the end of the plunger must face UP. Reassemble.

Really hard to say what the switch is for until you trace the wires out. The power antenna is a push/pull switch and would have 3 wires -- l from 6v in and 2 out to the antenna but it is possible someone has added something else.

The windshield washer in the photo is the standard all vacuum unit for 51-3 so no electric action on that one. To make the washer operate the wiper knob is turned opposite against a spring to the way that turns the wipers on and held for a few seconds. That moves the valve on the wiper motor to the position where the port on the motor driver side end gets vacuum which goes to the washer to pull the piston up for a charge of water. The knob is then released which stops the vacuum and lets air in so the spring in the washer piston can force it back down and expel the water charge. Once water starts squirting on the windshield the driver keeps turning the knob to start the wipers and clean the windshield.

All heads from 48-54 will fit on the various blocks and the various size number designations cast in the heads mean very little. As a matter of fact it was a Packard approved mod to swap heads in certain combinations for owners who wanted increased compression ratios. Your engine could have a head from the small 48-50 engine. The sender had the same ohm range and operation from 51-56 but the senders for 48-50 are a completely different type electrically and mechanically and may have larger threads. I don't remember or have one of those senders to look at. Ross is probably correct on the drilling out.

There is also vacuum in the choke housing that is pulling air thru the tube coming from the heated choke stove in the exhaust manifold. If the starter switch is OK and tube connecting the choke housing to the manifold is missing or out of position that might be making a noise.

The hose connections to the brake do make a difference although if they are reversed the brake will have no power assist so doubt that is the issue. 52 power brakes with the separate filter assy was generally one year only but it could be retrofitted to 51s so possibly a few of those are out there too. The unit has a sleeve valve to control vacuum to the power piston but in 53 onward they went to the poppet valve type which has the built in filter.

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Thank you all for the info. I'll trace the wires tomorrow.

I'll be reading on how to change the bulbs as it appears that I need to remove the instrument cluster then all the screws to remove the cover in order to access the bulbs from inside of the cluster. Correct?

BTW, the temp sending unit is resolved! I ran a wire from the sender to the gauge since I had my ohm tester out and the gauge started to move and stopped halfway or near "E" while it was just idling with the hood open. So I decided to remove the tape at the end of the connection and put a new connector and added a heat shrink tube for the remaining wire so that it lasts longer and not crumble. One down.

I'll remove the air intake and see if I messed up the carb when I rebuilt it

BTW, my wiper does turn back (towards the driver) but not forward (towards the engine) as stated above and in the user manual. Possibly need to clean/oil the wiper motor. And I don't think the car ever had a radio. No speaker and the radio cover appears to be original from the back and I don't see a single lose wire for radio or speaker under the dash. My antenna hole appears to never been occupied as I don't see any scratches and/or paint differences but I'll know more tomorrow as I will take 4 advils and go under the dash!

Anatole

thanks Howard, the diagram confirmed I positioned the hoses properly.

I did clean and used K&N oil in the small filter mounted on the firewall but I didn't do anything to the canister.

You do not need to take the cluster out and as a point of reference there are 2 studs on the bottom inside the dash holding it in addition to the two visible screws on top. If the cluster has never been removed and nuts are still on the studs they will be difficult to access as things already mounted in the dash will most likely be in the way. Even if the nuts and screws are out wires or a section of the loom wrapped around the steering column support may also prevent much movement in getting the cluster out of the dash.

The dash lights are in sockets accessible from the back of the cluster which can be removed by carefully pulling the socket and bulb out of the holes in the cluster. The bright light and turn signal indicator lights also remove from the back. It takes a bit of contortion and space behind the dash is limited but not terrible. The sockets may be tight so take care to pull straight out slowly and not at an angle that could catch the bulb glass on the edge of the holes and break them. Sometimes a thin screwdriver will help to gently persuade the sockets out of the holes. Also note the insulation on the old wires can shrink and there could be exposed bare wire right where it exits the hole in the socket shell. If the wire touches the shell that is a direct short.